Alan Roxburgh

Alan: Earlier this year I was invited to lead a one-day seminar in innovating missional change across a denominational system. This wonderful group of leaders had tried so many programs, and had a long list of all the options being proposed. As they began to grasp the idea that God's mission-shaped future was actually among the people of their congregations and there were non-coercive ways of inviting ordinary people to imagine a new future for themselves, these leaders began to come alive. Fred: Pastors and church leaders do not get useful feedback regarding their leadership effectiveness. It is either very superficial--"Great sermon today, Pastor." Or it's criticism--"You have to do something about those people, Pastor." Leadership development requires good and useful feedback. Numerous pastors tell us that the feedback, together with follow-up conversations with people, were the most important developmental experiences in their entire lives.

Tell us more about the significance of these skill sets you write about. Alan: What we've found is that non-traditional skills sets are coming into play: Engaging people, not so much aligning people in a predetermined plan, is one of the most significant skill sets emerging today--how to cultivate conversations, engagements, and networks among people and across people. If we're going to form mission-shaped communities that are rooted in what God is up to, the cultivation of spiritual life/disciplines is a very significant skill. Inside most church systems, most leaders live and practice isolated lives and do not have the skills of understanding leadership as a corporate practice in working alongside others. They are upset and burdened, thinking they need to come up with all the answers on their own. We are seeking to cultivate the skills of becoming co-learners together as leaders and creating learning communities.

Fred Roxburgh

Fred: The church is the ultimate member-driven organization. There is no church without the members. If church leaders are to lead, they have to create more than a group of followers. They have to create people who are energized by the Spirit of God to determine what God wants to do with them in their particular situation.

What one or two "lessons learned" about your topic would you pass on to readers?

Alan: Start, live in and never depart from the conviction that God's future is among God's people. This will free you from the need to chase after all the solutions and programs being offered that take you away from the center of leadership--the Spirit's presence and work among your people. Always begin with your people and cultivate listening conversations. Invite people into experiments. Let the experiments flourish, and trust what God wants to do among your own people.

Fred: Cultivating environments that unleash the Holy Spirit in the lives of Christians requires a focus on God as the true leader and definer of our futures. Every church leader can do this. Not every church leader can be a visionary entrepreneur who builds a mega-church.

What is new about what you have to say in this book?

Fred: Church leaders develop their leadership skills "on-the-job," but only in the context of an active awareness of what they are trying to achieve. It is not a formula. It is a process of personal change.

A good example is the church leader who needed to learn the skill of "influencing without authority." He went to the "Big Brothers" organization and asked them to assign him the worst kid they had. He made the commitment to work with this kid for a minimum of two years. He went through countless situations where the kid would kick him, fight him and be belligerent. But he learned lot about influencing without authority.

What are the big surprises in the book?

Alan: The biggest surprise is that a leader doesn't need a great plan or big vision for his/her church, but rather can discern the directions of God's future through intentional listening conversations and the cultivation of experiments.

Fred: One of my surprises is the change process we describe. This process is a refinement of a process developed by anthropologists who were trying to get Third World tribes to boil water because they were getting sick from drinking polluted water. They discovered that bringing about change requires a focus on a specific set of factors--every time.

What do you hope the reader takes away from the book?

Alan: I see so many leaders discouraged and disheartened because they know they will never be like the three or four stars presented in all the programs and conferences. I want them to rediscover the wonder of God's presence and work among really ordinary people.

Alan Roxburgh is a pastor, teacher, writer and consultant with more than 30 years experience in church leadership, consulting and seminary education. He works with the Allelon Center for Missional Leadership in the formation of leaders for the missional church.

Fred Romanuk is an organizational psychologist who has led strategic planning initiatives for many large organizations in Canada and the United States. He has also worked with senior executives in assessing and developing the capabilities of people in leadership roles.